MP4-12C - .: 360trev's :. 12C Ultimate Project Build Thread ! | McLarenChat
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MP4-12C .: 360trev's :. 12C Ultimate Project Build Thread !

Discussion in 'Super Series (MP4-12C, 650S, 675LT, and 720S)' started by 360trev, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. 360trev

    360trev Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    13
    isle Of Man
    Full Name:
    360trev
    12C Ultimate Project Build Thread

    Hello all, as I am sure many of you may have come over from FerrariChat.

    Firstly I wanted to thank you for taking a look here. If your from the Ferrari world there is a good chance you may have seen my Ferrari Build Thread in the 360/F430 section, it got over a quarter of a million views. If you are already familiar with my work I will carry on in the similar fashion here. ;)

    Well that project has been a great success and the car is just sensational to drive, its like no other 360 out there and is as fast as 2 generations newer car but much more involving. Its literally one of my favorite ever fast road/track cars and I'll never sell it. It had huge success in weight reduction and track setup. Both themes of which I will carry forward to the 12C Project...

    So... what's the rationale here when I already have a Mid-engined track car? Well both cars are actually very very similar in many ways. In fact this project is really to have something turbocharged to contrast against the high revving lightweight Normally Aspirated that is my 360...

    Ok on to 12C. This is quite a different car to the 360 which is much more mechanical and substantially less software involved. Kind of obvious since the 360 was designed the late 90's and the 12C post 2011 so so 12+ years of technology evolution separate them which in computer terms is light years...
     
  2. 360trev

    360trev Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    360trev
    #2 360trev, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
    There are some big plus points for me about the 12C which make this a great modern platform for a major project. Lets explore them...

    1. The carbon tub.

    Lets not beat about the bush here, Ferrari are on the back foot here, having invested heavily with a partnership with Alcoa in advanced aluminum technologies they are at a material disadvantage for the basic platform. The huge investment of doing this is a long term investment thing (they even built an Alcoa plant directly within the Ferrari factory). So cost wise so its unsurprising Ferrari have been forced to continue with Aluminum chassis as the base.

    The Carbon for the tub is really a fantastic material, not only from a weight perspective but also from a torsional rigidity point of view (chassis stiffness). Furthermore the passenger safety is light years ahead too and why every since adoption in F1 every single competitor adopted a carbon tub in their race cars. The fact is it does cost more to manufacture but if the approach costs McLaren $10,000 for the tub vs say $4,000 for the Aluminum chassis from Alcoa in the general scheme of things, this is just one or two options on the price list of a new supercar so clearly new Ferrari's are at a disadvantage here and have been since 2012 when the 12C was first introduced.

    Putting things back into perspective. From an overall weight perspective its not really HUGE difference (e.g. the Ferrari 360 chassis was 132kg's vs 80kg's for McLaren's carbon tub. We are talking about 50kg difference or there about's. I'm also starting to doubt the claims on weight saving now since the bolt on aluminium crash structures are large and heavy. What do they weigh? This probably closes the gap to the difference between a battery or so, so not actually that much. Also we all know Supercars have become so fat post 2000 era that this is only one part of the puzzle. Its nice to know however that at high speed your chassis is not going to split apart like many 360's did when faced with non movable tree's, etc. Obviously the only real way to have motorsport level of safety would be an entire cell and HANS device but every little helps.

    2.The engine & gearbox.

    This is an interesting one. It kind of reminds me of the Nissan GT-R in many respects. It is a massively capable twin turbocharged unit that's obviously detuned (or engineered for multiple cars) so that all of the different variants could use some subtle variation of it even the P1 and Senna. Its already proven that just a remap to the 12C yields a good 700hp but that's where the turbo's are at their peak flow rate so to go further you need upgrades. Bigger turbo's, a remap and wider diameter exhaust (sports or decat pipes) and backbox) and your at the door of over 850hp. With some further optimizations you can achieve a peak 900hp and get your 12C in the 8 second quarter mile club which is just incredible from a virtually stock engine. I would personally do cooling upgrades too, particularly to prevent any head overheating issues but that's mighty impressive. This is a tuners dream and the fact that recent developments mean you can even do OBD remaps now (no need to remove the ecu's) we expect.

    Funny enough this engine is the single major reason why Ferrari went for forced induction on the 488 and beyond. They where being killed in the performance bracket by McLaren. They couldn't go head to head with weight reduction because of the Aluminum vs Carbon tub so clearly McLaren could win that so they had to do a major engine upgrade and boy Ferrari delivered. Blow for Blow both Ferrari and McLaren engines are now capable of 1000hp with little effort. Where Ferrari have trounced McLaren here is in the Normally aspirated style delivery of the Ferrari engine. Its really a fantastic achievement and they did a great job here but really the McLaren engine is very good from a turbo lag perspective too its just that Ferrari wins this one. If your tuning for big numbers though none of this matters that much...

    The only thing that is stopping this is product differentiation between models and ofcourse the fact that actually many customers don't want or need to go that fast. Seriously. There are a lot of people who simply don't want an 8 second quarter mile. Its too fast for them and it scares them. I am not one of them ;)

    Both Ferrari and McLaren share the same gearbox supplier, Graziano, for their dual clutch box so technically its all just down to software calibration.

    3. The chassis

    Another McLaren win but also a partial win/partial loss here*.

    The win is thanks to adoption of Tenneco's advanced suspension system.See
    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15123918/the-anti-anti-roll-bar-tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature/
    to understand a bit more. Suffice to say this dramatically improves grip and ride comfort so is a huge step forward for the supercar.

    The loss (debatable) is the lack of an Mechanically assisted electronic differential (or E-Diff in Ferrari Speak). Instead of using a mechanical differential its done in software using Brake Steer which obviously saves weight but relies on precise management and ultimately is hard to get calibration spot on for all conditions and surfaces. Since this is done using software as the software algorithms evolve the overall effect gets better to the point where it will rival a traditional LSD. This is the same argument that Hydraulic steering is better for feel until the digital equivalent of electric steering catches up. On the 12C its at the MP3 stages of development which is probably good enough for most people but racers perfer the full raw samples they get from the LP's (or LSD's). The theory going more predictable handling and easier to feel whats going on. In the 12C the computer is giving the driver racer accessible to years of experience. The other advantage this yields is a feeling of more agility in the corners as it precise path through the arc of the corner (helped by gyroscopes no doubt and possibly even satnav mapping data points in the future) can give an even better control of the wheels behaviour through the corners than a traditional Mechanical grip LSD.

    4. The braking


    A draw. Ferrari are winning here in some ways due to being a couple of generations ahead in terms of experience but the gap is closing if not closed on the latest McLaren's. Early 12C's CCM's where the older generation of brake CCM's so where not as good and most people opted for Steel brakes anyway. By the time the 675LT came out the braking feel was all but resolved and it was on par with Ferrari's. I personally like to go with endurance racing Pagid pads over stock material on my 360, gives a better cold feel and less damage to discs over longer track sessions. Be interesting to look at the latest CCM2 compounds and compare. Furthermore these days probably better to upgrade to 675LT braking than fit anything else.

    Ok thats the basics out of the way..
     
  3. Doctor Mark

    Doctor Mark Rookie

    Dec 14, 2018
    4
    Full Name:
    Mark Gronsbell
    The DCT gearbox used by Ferrari is made by Getrag. McLaren and Lamborghini use the gearbox made by Graziano.
     
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  4. 360trev

    360trev Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Yes your correct, I was wrong, while Graziano did produce a DCT a gearbox ( as used by McLaren in the 12C among many other manufacturers), Ferrari awarded the contract to Getrag for the 458's. All the older AMT Ferrari 360's, F430's, 612's, the Enzo, 575M and so forth where done by Graziano.

    Dual clutch is such a different beast to AMT that its going to all be in the weight and the calibration differences. I wonder if anyone knows the difference in weight between the 458's Getrag and 12C's Graziano? I imagine the biggest differences are in software evolution and calibration between applications.
     
  5. 360trev

    360trev Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Here's the work in progress list of planned upgrades...

    1. Get a Weight 'Baseline' for Project Starting Point
    Put the car on my corner weight scales and get a baseline of the factory weight as it is today. Also see if I can drain the fuel tank and fill it to precisely 20 liters. Or fill it to the brim if that's not so easy.

    Rationale
    A lot of the parts being fitted are directly related to weight reduction, I will weigh each part removed and compare it directly with each part swapped. This will allow people to compare the weight savings themselves and see if they are indeed worth their while doing.

    Exterior
    • Carbon Front bumper (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Front wings/fenders (not standard raised vents but ones from the 12C Sprint race with the 'flush' or flat vents). (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Front luggage compartment lid/bonnet (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Air Brake (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Engine vent (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Engine Lid (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Rear Diffuser (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Engine Zone (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Engine Covers (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Windshield Cowl (weight reduction)
    • Carbon Side Mirror Housings (weight reduction)
    • Lexan rear glass with extra cooling (weight reduction)
    • 675LT Alloy wheels (different wheel offset yields better handling without a spacer plus weight reduction)
    • 675LT Titanium wheel bolts (weight reduction)
    • 675LT Springs & Geo settings (with some custom extra negative camber, etc. for fast road/track spec setup) (handling)
    • 675LT 'style' side skirts in CF to fit 12C (extra cooling and aero improvements)
    • 675LT Carbon Side Blades and grilles (extra cooling and aero improvements)
    • 675LT Full Carbon Brake upgrade kit, calipers, discs, handbrake calipers, etc. (weight saving)
    • 675LT Steering Rack *(tbd)
    • Michelin Pilot Cup 2s (for everyday) and Pirelli Trofeo R's (for dry trackdays)
    • Pagid RS Endurance pads
    • Steel braided brake hoses (if not already fitted)

    Power & Calibration [Part 1]
    • Akrapovic Ti Exhaust (weight saving / power & noise)
    • High Flow Sports Cats (weight saving / power & noise)
    • Stage II Re-calibration to circa 700hp
    • Gearbox Re-calibration
    • 675LT Suspension Re-calibration

    Power & Calibration [Part 2]
    • XPRD Turbo Upgrade Kit with replacement cat pipes
    • Stage 3 Re-calibration to circa 850hp (* may go straight to stage 2, skipping Stage 1 altogether)

    Interior
    • Carbon Steering wheel with larger CF paddle shifter and Alcantara.
    • Carbon Interior pack (already fitted)
    • Carbon Door jams
    • Carbon Sports Seats from P1/675LT (weight reduction)
    • Iris Replacement Project (Latest Android with High Resolution 'Retina' display)
    • Track Pack Ti Rollcage with race harnesses
    • Track Pack Replacement uprated 4K cameras
    • Full retrim of any leather to Alcantara.

    Extra weight reduction
    • Replacement Crash bars to carbon fibre
    • Removal of carpets
    • Removal of sound deadening
    • Removal of stereo system, amps & speakers
    • Removal of airbags (full airbag delete)
    • Removal of inerta reel seat belts (harness only)
    • Dashboard lightening (brackets, bolts, etc)
    • Lightweight Full Carbon Doors cards
    • Lightweight Full Carbon Doors
    • Lightweight Full Carbon underbody trays
    • Lightweight Windshield glass from 675LT
    • Modified suspension parts (weight reduction *more on this later*)

    Additional Handling
    • Upgraded engine and gearbox bushes
    • Upgraded upper/lower wishbone bushes
    • Full corner weighting

    ----
    Target: 100kg to 150kg weight reduction
    ~300hp increase
     
  6. Ingenere

    Ingenere Formula Junior
    Premium Subscribed Owner

    Dec 11, 2001
    390
    On the Limit
    Full Name:
    Dino
    It's going to be special!
     
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  7. 360trev

    360trev Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    I promise I will start posting pictures soon which will make this a lot more interesting but I'm still in the acquisition of parts phase and believe me it takes some time!
     
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  8. Argo8

    Argo8 Rookie

    May 15, 2019
    2
    Spain
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    Argo8
    I subscribe to your thread
    I have read trev and
    its construction of ferrari 360cs for years.
    eager to learn from his knowledge is a master.
     

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